Game Versus the Reactosphere
One of my biggest pet-peeves is seeing people argue at cross-purposes, and I think that’s precisely what’s going on with this debate between the Neoreactionaries and the Game bloggers: both sides are arguing against a caricature, due to the fact that – despite using the same terminology – they’re both using the terms with subtly different nuances, thus leading to an apparent disagreement, where no major disagreement actually exists.
An example of that confused terminology is the conflation of PUA with Gamer.
On the surface they’re very similar. They both write about picking up women, they both use words like “neg” and “shit-test”, and they both spend an inordinate amount of time in seedy environs which offend the heightened sensibilities of your typical Neoreactionary.
But when you dig beneath the surface, 
you find two groups of men who are as different as night and day. Case in point: just look at this fool in a furry hat. Guys like Roosh, Heartiste, Vox, or Remy Sheppard wouldn’t be caught dead hanging out with him, and as for his book The Mystery Method – well, it was too depressing for me to finish, but TheRawness argues that it perfectly summarizes the Codependent-Turned-Narcissist.
If the Neoreactionaries were arguing solely against the Pick Up Artist community, I think we’d be in full agreement with them. Yes, these people are destructive to society, particularly in light of the fact that many of them are avowed feminists. From a 2011 interview in Feministe:
When [Neil Strauss and I] talked about feminism, he expressed a surprising amount of respect and appreciation. He said things like “We still are a patriarchal society”, and when I pointed out that many pickup artists hate feminism, he said that “A guy who says he hates feminism (a) doesn’t understand or know feminism, and (b) is scared of powerful women.”
Feminist boiler plate 101.
The truth about the PUAs is that they’re nothing but extremely successful pussy-beggars; they’re the top 1% of Nice Guys.
Nice Guys get a lot of flak from the Gamers for being contemptible little pseudo-males, but it wouldn’t be such a widespread phenomenon if it didn’t work occasionally. The Nice Guy is the male who befriends a woman, in the hope of eventually bedding her when a bad-boy breaks her heart. XKCD summarizes this vile deceitfulness in comic-form here:
Bit by bit, I’ll make you depend on me. You’ll think about how long it would take to build this kind of connection again. And in a moment of weakness – and loneliness – You’ll give in. It’ll feel comfortable and natural. You’ll quietly revise your definition of love and try to be happy. And sometimes you will be. On the wistfulness in your gaze and the tiny pause before you say “I love you” will hint that this wasn’t the ending you’d hoped for.
This is also known as being a “Sneaky Male”, and PUA is this behaviour writ large.
The PUA embraces the female imperative, “Whatever you say, honey!” feeding into a woman’s delusions, and debasing himself into an amusing little boy for her delight. Nothing but a heterosexual catamite.
Game, on the other hand, celebrates masculinity. As is implied by the XKCD comic, a man who practices Game tells a woman what he wants, and what he expects out of her – he leads the dance, and she delights in being his submissive partner. As DannyFrom504 points out, Game looks like this:
Now that said, most Game blogs are focused on notch-count, on sleeping with as many high-quality women as possible – and as The Social Pathologist says, occasionally they over-step their authority:
In debates, PUA’s [sic – he means Game bloggers] are liable to “pull rank” on them by virtue of their notch count, and to a degree they are justified, but only when it comes to the subject of getting women into bed. When they start pulling rank on other issues, they’ve exceeded their authority.
Personally, my notch-count is roughly on par with Saint Augustine’s¹, and also like Saint Augustine, I find the topic of Game rather dull. Important, no doubt – but I find the rarefied air of theology and political philosophy far more congenial to my lungs.
Which is why I hope that I can heal this divide.
ͼ-Ѻ-ͽ
In my estimation, Esoteric Tradition has nailed the points of contention perfectly; however, I respectfully disagree that there is any substantive difference. The second half of this essay will be structured along his bullet points.
Promotion of PUA as a way of life
As noted above, Game =/= PUA. Furthermore, Game is about more than just casual sex and notch-counts: it’s about enjoying an excess of femininity. At its inception, yes – it was just about numbers – but as the body of work expanded, Game bloggers reached consensus on what sort of woman they wanted – and surprise, surprise! – it was a traditional, feminine woman. Not the Easy Feminist Slut which the PUAs so love. Somebody who studies Game would rather have one traditionally feminine woman, than a dozen slatterns.
However, at present these women are extremely difficult to find; the female serial-monogamist is the new norm. The Gamer attitude is: “Well, if I’m not going to find a wife, I might as well get laid.” Accepting reality isn’t the same as promoting it.
Spreading the 60s Harvard feminist sexual revolution is a bad thing
Unlike Mystery and his Feminist advocacy which I quoted above, I don’t see the Game bloggers doing this.
Quite the contrary; it’s the Game community (Roosh V Forums, specifically) who organized Traditional Sex Roles Week under the #BackToTheKitchen hashtag, who organized the previous #FatShamingWeek event (where they rejected the post-modernist concept of subjective beauty standards), and whom are presently discussing #SlutShaming Week.
That’s right – the guys who are studying how to get the sluts to come home with them, are the same guys who are creating a campaign to discourage sluttery.
Sometimes the best way to stop a child from eating candy, is to let him eat as much as he wants – and it’s often the men who’ve spent the most time around sluts, who are the most starved for the company of a Lady True.
PUA tourism is just another American imperialism
This presupposes that it’s Roosh pushing this culture onto Europe – as opposed to Feminists, Soros, and the European Union.
Quite the contrary; Roosh is in Europe because it’s more traditional. If he wanted notches, he’d still be living in Washington D.C.; feminists aren’t exactly dificult to bed. Instead he wants a pursuit which is harder, but more rewarding.
At the end of the day, it’s not the Gamers who control female promiscuity; this behaviour is completely in the hands of the women. To again quote The Social Pathologist:
In the West, it is the women who control sexuality and if the place resembles a brothel is because women want it to be that way. The PUA’s are simply taking advantage of the situation: they are a second order phenomenon. The primary pathogen is female promiscuity.
PUA’s are not like Jedi Masters, able to exert some some irresistible mind control over women. To think so is to deny women moral agency. No PUA advocates rape, despite feminist attempts to smear them with this charge. For every successful notch there has to be a woman who has willingly spread her legs. A while ago Roosh tweeted about his failed attempt to seduce a young Croatian girl who was studying to become a nun. You can’t run a brothel without whores.
Ed: The story is apocryphal (legends are self-generating around Roosh, apparently) but like all good fiction, there is a seed of truth in it.
Speaking and acting like you’re a gangbanger (not all do this but enough seem to)
I wish I could say this doesn’t happen, but it does. All I can say in their defence is that Aaron Clarey thinks I’m a degenerate for listening to Rock’n’Roll, and (when I’m feeling contentious) I’ll often call him a degenerate for listening to reefer-infused Jazz, sung by man-whores like Frank Sinatra.
Ignoring the damage PUA types perpetuate.
This hasn’t been an issue since 2008.
While I recall Tucker Max claiming that he always leaves girls better off than when he met them, nobody in the Game community has believed in this delusion for quite some time. Most Game blogs will openly state that any notch-count is a bad notch-count for a woman.
But – once again – it’s not the men who are in control of the sluttiness, it’s the women. Game simply hands over the tools of the Omega Sexual Degenerate to the average man. If women are going to be slutting it up, they should at least be doing it with decent guys, rather than drug-dealers and baby daddies.
And although the slutting isn’t good for the women, the empowerment of men through Game is: the book More Sex is Safer Sex: The Unconventional Wisdom of Economics explains how, statistically, the more Men who are having sex, the fewer STDs which will be spread – and hopefully, the fewer Baby Mommas, as Game advocates tend to be a bit more responsible than Leroy Jenkins.
Most of the Manosphere seems attached to Democracy
Most of the world is attached to Democracy; but who’s more likely to listen to reason: a Blue Piller, or a Red Piller? The Red Pill analysis of Feminism is fast making it clear that A)Women are irrational, and B)Every school of Feminism has been detrimental. The Manosphere’s Red Pill disproves so much conventional wisdom, that well-argued unconventional wisdom becomes far more palatable.
I would suggest the following strategy:
Start with attacking Female Suffrage,
Move on to Universal Male Suffrage,
Begin to question the whole precept of “Humanity as Final Arbiter”,
And don’t allow the Perfect to be the enemy of the Good
Responding to criticism from other Dark Enlightenment thinkers like feminists by throwing around terms like “white knight”
I took this point out of order, because it’s the most mixed-bag of the bunch.
On the one hand, this critique is valid, but misguided: a Neoreactionary shaming of male promiscuity is going to sound a lot like Feminist shaming, and Christian shaming is going to sound a lot like Churchian shaming. That the two are fundamentally different is hard to grasp without close attention.
And why would they give you that attention? The onus is on you to prove that you’re not a Feminist/Churchian destroyer.
On the other hand – and there’s no nice way to put this – philosophers in the Neoreaction often are White Knights.
Until you’ve seen the raw female Id, it’s impossible to fully understand it. Heck, I even have to remind myself every so often – the other half of the Mother Goddess is Kali the Destroyer. The earth nurtures, and the earth consumes; the womb and the tomb are just different aspects of the same force.
Women are amazingly talented at playing the victim, and the curse of our race is that Adam is so prone to falling under Eve’s spell, no matter how much she wants him to overcome. Finding that fine line between Truth and Bitterness has driven many a poet mad.
The philosophers in the Neoreaction tend to lean towards intellectual, rather than the rough and tumble, and the glorious heat of battle. They are not the sorts of men who tend to enjoy the Night Club scene – and as such, they’re far less likely to have experience with women than your average jock. This leads to a certain naïveté about women – also known as pedestalization, and White Knighting.
The only advice I can give, is to tell you about the Mystery known to all the great seducers throughout history: that women are filthy, vile, and venal little creatures, desperately ashamed of themselves, desperate to be as righteous as men, and yet eager to tear men down – they know this about themselves, and they hate this about themselves, and their secret hope (a hope they’ll seldom admit, even to themselves, because of how dearly they hold it) is that they can find a Man who knows this about them, but still manages to love them.
The second part of the Mystery is this: it is possible to know how horrible women are… and love them all the more.
Final Thoughts
While I’ll readily agree that Chastity is ideal in society, in practical terms it’s not that big of a deal. Both the Christians and the Neoreactionaries focus on it far too much. The Bible – despite an occasional passage where it condemns San Francisco and LA Sodom and Gomorrah – really doesn’t have all that much to say about sexuality.
Wait until marriage? Yeah, that’s a good idea – but humans are idiots, and most of them are going to screw it up. Thank goodness for the blood of the lamb, and all that.
At the end of the day, the Manosphere is full of men speaking Truth, and daring to live by the Truth they speak. That they fall short of an ideal is no surprise – we all fall short, at some point or another. But don’t let these minor differences drive us apart.
I don’t have all the answer – heck, I don’t even have all the answers for myself. This disagreement is in no way fundamental, and we shouldn’t let it grow into something that divides us. In all important respects, we’re fighting on the same side.
There are many paths up the mountain, after all – but there’s only one peak.
ͼ-Ѻ-ͽ
1. As a young man, he was an incorrigible rake.
That man in the mascara is not alpha.
Period.
If you want respect AND sex, you must teach yourself to be alpha.
The bible does require and makes mandatory marriage of women to the seducers that took their virginity(Exodus 22:16-17) Unless the father absolutely refuses to give her to him.
the idea is if you soiled the fertile unploughed field with your seed you keep the field. Or if you broke it you keep it.
Hence this is the way chastity is kept in a biblical society.
@Will
The context is that the father had control on his daughter’s sexuality, and the man snuck-in to knowingly steal it.
Fathers in today’s society have told their daughters to go sow their wild oats; they’ve offered up their daughter’s sexuality for free. The seducer who sleeps with her owes the woman nothing.
In tribal societies, a woman is one of three things: A child, a mother, or a whore.
Old testament law simply recognized that this man now owed this woman a life as a mother. No free kiddies for baby-daddies in that culture.
Great post, Aurini. I haven’t followed the Neo-R vs. Game debates, but I’m quite certain it’s on the exact same trajectory as the Christian vs. Game debate I’ve been involved with since ’08 or so…
There are just some guys who are unable to see the tactical utility of Game, and view it as a religion or cult in which any adherents are brainwashed and must follow the dogma.
Meh.
At it’s heart, “Game” is a rejection of the mainstream cultural narrative. It’s accepting ugly truth over beautiful lies.
@Keoni
Yup, it’s pretty much the same debate.
Call it Deep Wisdom; it’s when you can see a society that looks perfect on the surface, but you can see the cancer underneath. Appearance vs Essence. I know plenty of Atheists who are truer to Christ and most Christians.
“I would suggest the following strategy:
Start with attacking Female Suffrage,
Move on to Universal Male Suffrage,
Begin to question the whole precept of “Humanity as Final Arbiter”,
And don’t allow the Perfect to be the enemy of the Good”
Spot on. It only requires one to continue on thinking. The process itself is like a cross of Matrix and Inception – with mulitilayered bubbles one needs to pop.
Dude… that analogy was beautiful.
Reading your analysis of Game Theory, I can’t help but think that Game Theorists are borrowing some notes out of the gay playbook. The emphasis on being upfront about ones’ sexual goals and expectations reminds me of the handkerchief code that was utilized back on the 70s and 80s: the color of a handkerchief and which back pocket you wore it in could communicate a dizzying array of sexual tastes and interests. The modern hookup apps are probably a modern descendent of this system.
Of course, I’m not saying that gay men are stirling examples of Game. One need only look at the recent resurgence of STDs including HIV among young gay men to know that. But I think both straight Gamers and their gay counterparts could learn from each other: straight Gamers could take advantage of social media and apps to find partners more easily, whereas gay Gamers could benefit from the respect that straight Gamers have for their partners, especially in the health department.
“I know plenty of Atheists who are truer to Christ and most Christians.”
“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?” They *said, “The first.” Jesus *said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him. Matthew 21: 28-32
Even Jesus talks about how actions mean more than words. If you sin and then repent…that means more than saying you are so good that you are in no need of repentance.
The older I get the more I realize that while I don’t want to sin or others to sin…it’s going to happen and we have a Savior ready to forgive our screw ups.
Earl, you nailed it.
You know why the feminists hate us so much? Because they see themselves reflected in our writings, without delusion. It tells them straight-up how terrible they are, even though we never met them… but their pride prevents them from ever admitting their wrong.
They’d rather be a prideful cat-lady, alone on Christmas, avoided by their family members, then ever admit that the carousel was a mistake.
I’d be more forgiving of a woman that shows some actual repentance for her past actions. If God does it for me…then I’d do it for her.
Aurini…I don’t know if you ever read St. John Bosco’s vision of hell, but it is a good read. He was told disobedience, pride, and the sixth commandment are the most dangerous sins and trap the most people.
http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/bosco_hell.htm
@Earl – I’ve noticed in your avatar you have photo of Maximilian Kolbe – accident or some higher purpose/meaning?
@ramram…
No accident.
And thinking about it….feminism is nothing more than promoting impurity, pride, and disobedience on a societal scale. That’s not good for either gender.
Earl, Basco’s “vision” is certainly effective. Got this apostate’s heart pumping a little! I’m not sure if I buy that he had an honest-to-God vision, but even if it’s just a story to frighten delinquent boys, it definitely works.
But disobedience is now “self-assertion,” pride is now “self-esteem,” and adultery and lust are now “sexual freedom.” And the “old ways” were so bad… why?
@Sean…
I’m a cradle Catholic and that story gets my heart pumping too. It’s not like I’m innocent of impurity, pride, or disobedience myself. The trick is they make you feel good for a while and blind you until it’s too late to realize your folly. It’s not easy to stay pure, humble, and obedient when everything brainwashes you as a loser for pursuing those things.
But impurity, pride, and disobedience turn people into losers. For women…it robs them of their prime years on Earth. Men, it throws them into Hell.
Every PUA I’ve met has been, without exception, a liar and a coward. They tell women “want they want to hear.” And most of their conquests have been fat girls, ugly girls, fat ugly girls, and whores – that is, when they’re not making them up.
“A while ago Roosh tweeted about his failed attempt to seduce a young Croatian girl who was studying to become a nun. You can’t run a brothel without whores.”
People make up the stupidest shit about me.. lol.
I once was a white knight, until the constant pounding, heart rending, and generally failure – forced me to re-examine everything I knew, to find knowledge and truth.
Here’s a Zarathustra quote: ‘The air rarefied and pure, danger near and the spirit full of a gay wickedness: these agree well together’
if game weren’t a reality and unlearnable, our blogs wouldn’t exist.
thanks for the linkage cuddle nugget.
Well said. The biggest issue in my experience is the Neoreactionaries’ failure to distinguish between Game and PUA. Two different things, as you point out.
On a similar note, it’s satisfying to observe Neoreactionary thinkers and Game practitioners come together in the DE “movement”.
This has been a personal project of ours for the last year and a half or so.
The fundamental difference between Gamers and PUAs is that Gamers have standards and, if I dare to use the word, self-esteem. To use the metaphor of the Arthurian Grail quest, Gamers are searching for a woman. I won’t go so far as to say “The One,” but they are looking for a woman suitable to make a family with. Along the way, there will be dalliances and distractions, but in the end, they will settle for nothing but the best. PUAs are carrion birds without self-respect, settling for the desperate and the untaken because they don’t stand a chance with quality women.
If you didn’t like The Mystery Method, I wonder which PUA books you would approve of, if any?
“that women are filthy, vile, and venal little creatures, desperately ashamed of themselves, desperate to be as righteous as men, and yet eager to tear men down – they know this about themselves, and they hate this about themselves, and their secret hope (a hope they’ll seldom admit, even to themselves, because of how dearly they hold it) is that they can find a Man who knows this about them, but still manages to love them.”
I wonder, do you realize how incredibly hard you nailed this? The fear that this knowledge instills in a woman and the anger and shame she feels, yet will so often not even admit to herself? What’s more, the frustration (at some level) of never being able to completely rise above it as she sees (or imagines) some men she highly admires being able to?
So, instead of working ever harder to rise above this, she uses her power, her weakness, to bring men down so she can better compare herself to them. Then she despises these men for letting her do that to them.
@Roosh
Added a note about the apocryphal nature of the story. Legends are apparently self-generating around you!
@Stingray
When men are twisted up about this nature of woman, it’s called the “Madonna/Whore Complex”. Basically it boils down to wanting something that’s illogical – a coin that has a “heads” but no “tail”.
The reality is that women are both Madonna and Whore, and that you can’t have one without the other. Try and pretend that only one exists, and the other comes out in horrid ways.
@ Davis: So you’re essentially saying that men need to acknowledge that women have innate instincts towards both good and evil? That they are neither incorruptible saints nor irredeemable sinners? That they are both angels and demons? That they are capable of both breathtaking moral beauty and harrowing moral ugliness?
There’s a word for that: Human. :)
I hate to disagree. The stark distinction between PUA and Game is news to me. I am a rationalist who applies the evolutionary framework. I think PUA was Game before it was called that. The technology grew (evolved) and the term PUA probably just became an antiquated pejorative. At least that’s what I pieced together informally.
I think your quote is of Neil Strauss and not Mystery. Neil is now comfortably in the bosom of the establishment. I might say the same shit too. If we take Capt. Capitalism’s advice and enjoy the decline by feeding on the corruption to our advantage when we can, what’s wrong with it. Time to separate the fools from the humans. I don’t think Neil believes that per this Rok article by Athlone McGinnis, “Why Famous Men Become Outspoken Feminists” (men like John Legend): http://www.returnofkings.com/26986/why-famous-men-become-outspoken-feminists
Mystery’s empirical use of evolutionary psychology in the field was seminal to Game and I think to human history. He also had a website for peer review of field reports, though alt.seduction.fast did that first. I see a continuum. It is hard to say what song was the first rock song, the first metal song, the first punk song, because evolution happens by degrees. I find it hard to put an definitive line between PUA and Game. There are commenters in the Game-stewarding Manosphere who prefer feminism for the notch counts and others who would prefer patriarchy, but its all application of Game.
I have found trying to get laid with Game to be therapeutic. You’ve just got to experience it. Others have written that pursuing the lay is what helps a man develop his inner game best. If I must choose between Neo-reaction and Dark Enlightenment, I will choose Dark Enlightment. I like having the freedom to choose how I will use my power. I thank Mystery for his seminal contribution. We are sexually reproducing gene colony survival machines. The social damage done is by the social engineering debt slavery by the money alchemists. PUAs simply adapted to feminism ahead of the curve.
that women are filthy, vile, and venal little creatures, desperately ashamed of themselves, desperate to be as righteous as men, and yet “eager to tear men down – they know this about themselves, and they hate this about themselves, and their secret hope (a hope they’ll seldom admit, even to themselves, because of how dearly they hold it) is that they can find a Man who knows this about them, but still manages to love them.”
The bible paints a pretty bleak picture of man. It says his heart is desperately wicked(Jeremiah 17:9). His inclination is toward evil(Genesis 8:21). And even his good deeds are soiled with sin(Isaiah 64:6). Hence for this reason the wrath of God is revealed against man(Romans 1:18-32). Hence the need for a savior whose blood will ensure that the person that is guilty will be considered innocent. For to stand naked before a Holy God no man can survive.
Those truths are of course dependent on the empty tomb and the resurrection and presupposing the existence of God.
Aurini and Roosh, I remember the tweet. No bullshit, too bad I didn’t screen-capture it.
“There’s a word for that: Human.”
Agreed. The problem today lies in the fact that while the evil that men are capable of is taught far and wide and, often times, highly exaggerated (for 99% of men), the evil that women are capable of has been buried (or attempted to be buried. Funnily, the more it was buried, the more evil women have openly embraced).
Many are taught from the crib that women are soft, warm, very nearly incapable of evil and on a higher spiritual plain than men (most likely because we are so much more emotional than men). So, since we are seen to *feel* more, we must be closer to God. When in reality, I tend to think women have a far more difficult time with the sacrificial love that is needed in not only a marriage but in our relationships with God.
On a side note, when a man and woman come together and both decide that together, they are going to work hard to overcome the evil side of their coin and focus on the moral side of it, they have the potential to lift each other to amazing heights. If only one is working on the moral side, that person has the potential to demonstrate and inspire the other to do the same.
The opposite is also very true. They can follow each other into the pit of hell or one can influence the other on this awful downward spiral.
@Stingray
The two sides of the coin aren’t inherently evil, it’s just that certain drives are more obvious in the damage they do (lust and wrath are easy to target than sloth, for instance).
It also seems to me that evils we target in people, as a society, are hardly the worst evils. Matt Forney takes on Cynthia Gockley in his recent piece, a woman who’s too prideful to ever admit that she’s been the architect of her own failures: http://mattforney.com/2014/02/09/is-feminist-blogger-cynthia-gockley-a-dangerous-stalker/
Pride and self-esteem – they’re almost interchangeable.
As a society, we obsess over violence to the point where victims of bullying get caught in “Zero Tolerance” prosecutions, and where saying that “a bit of violence can be a good thing (like a good, clean fist fight)” makes me sound like an unhinged lunatic. Meanwhile other problems, which are far more destructive to the individual, are raised up as virtues.
I tend to think that a healthy relationship between a man and a woman helps them place their drives into context, and employs their ‘darker’ nature in a positive manner. Dark doesn’t mean evil, after all.
“Dark does not mean evil, after all.” Absolutely. Just as the Seven Heavenly Virtues can become vices when carried too far, the Seven Deadly Sins can become virtues in moderation: lust can be tamed to become healthy sexuality and sensuality; nobody wants to sleep with an icicle. Gluttony can be tamed to become healthy enjoyment of the finer things in life. Greed can be tamed to become respect for one’s possessions, even those in one’s care. Sloth can be tamed to become an ability to slow down and enjoy life. Wrath can be tamed to motivate us to work against evil. Envy can be tamed to become a desire to better ourselves. Pride can be tamed to be healthy respect for one’s own ability.
Aurini,
I was using the word as other had used it. In the way you are using it, I agree.
There is true evil people are capable of and that is often what the feminists try to focus on when it comes to men and masculinity. This put ever more fear into women, that men then wanted to protect them from (some kind of oxymoron, isn’t it?).
In reality, I don’t think most women understand true evil. Neither do a lot of men.
“Pride and self-esteem – they’re almost interchangeable.”
Yes, and I think self esteem is different when it comes to men and women (this is when I wish our language used more gender based differences). So many women get so incredibly upset when Matt Forney talks about crushing self esteem in women and what I think he means, is the masculine self esteem that is so often seen today. Not a true feminine self esteem.
“I tend to think that a healthy relationship between a man and a woman helps them place their drives into context, and employs their ‘darker’ nature in a positive manner. ”
Again, I agree completely. It has been said that true freedom is found in discipline. Discipline of our darker natures’ can most definitely enhance one’s life.
The given escoteric mystery know to seducers is totally legit. Every woman knows it subconsciously and few men know it consciously. Water, water everywhere. If we could convince most men it’s true, things would change drastically for the better. Based on the voting patterns I see, I’m not expecting it will happen.
@realitydoug
The question is then how to desiminate such knowledge among men. And the possible adaptations on the part of the women to counter that.
Interesting article, you acknowledge that PUAs are sneaky, seedy, feminist pussy beggars, destructive to society, but then you don’t offer any fundamental difference to distinguish them from gamers, you mainly seem to object to their style, PUAs pretend to be nice beta boys whilst gamers pretend to be strong alpha males,
Promotion of PUA as a way of life
Neither wants the responsibility of marriage, but the gamers are different, it’s not that they enjoy being morally compromised slut fuckers like the PUAs, oh no it’s just that they can’t find a worthy woman, problem is Roosh etc regularly brag on how they banged some super hot girl who was ideal wifey material, being young, sweet and feminine, before dumping her for the next on.
Spreading the Harvard 60s feminist sexual revolution is a bad thing
So PUAs admit they enjoy the degenerate boomer culture whereas the gamers like to whine about it, no they really mean it after all they have created a campaign to discourage sluttery, how polite of you to ‘discourage’ sluttery, seems like you ‘alphas’ really mean business, a slut is simply a woman who has sex outside of marriage, if you don’t want to be a nation of sluts and slut fuckers then you have to privilege marriage.
PUA tourism is just another American Imperialism
So PUAs travel the world in search of cheap sex, whereas gamers search out expensive sex, proved by Roosh going to femmie, commie, homo, euroland where women are cheaper than the US, but apparently it’s got nothing to do with men if their women are cheap, they’re powerless,
‘In the West, it is the women who control sexuality and if the place resembles a brothel is because women want it to be that way. The PUA’s are simply taking advantage of the situation: they are a second order phenomenon. The primary pathogen is female promiscuity’
In the West, men let their women be promiscuous bribed by cheap slut sex and now their women are lower than prostitutes, anyone can take advantage of their women, but the men don’t seem to care, as long as they can take advantage too.
The West is a matriarchy, a matriarchy is a society that condones female promiscuity whereas a patriarchy is a society that condones male promiscuity, a patriarchy is the lesser of the two evils, always choose the lesser of two evils.
In a patriarchy men condemn female promiscuity, they don’t allow their women to behave like whores, because they have some fucking male pride, no father will let his daughter be a slut, no brother will let his sister behave like a whore, and any man who lets the females in his family behave shamefully will be seen as a complete fucking embarrassment, no one is allowed to take advantage of their women.
Speaking and acting as a gangbanger
So PUAs deny promiscuity damages women whereas gamers admit it does, but then deny that women are mens responsibility,
and hey at least we are better than drug dealing baby daddies, aka blacks, why are you better when you act black anyway
Most of the Manosphere seems attached to Democracyof course women are vain, irrational and stupid that is there nature, they are not meant for leadership, but then how much lower are the men who have handed all their power over to these women in return for some cheap slut sex, how can anyone have respect for the Western man when they are so weak, foreigners looking at the western male situation, would agree that the western female is out of control, but then what else do you expect they’re women, where are the men they will ask why, are they not men? have they no pride? feminism leads to immigration, a nation run by women will be weak and in a matriarchy by definition there can be no alpha males, if men become women who will defend the men? not the women who will mate with the enemy.
Responding to criticism from other Dark Enlightenment thinkers
I don’t understand the term white knighting is it a slur on traditional chivalrous values, an attack on aristocratic virtues, are men not allowed to be is noble anymore? Should intellectual white men stop trying, dumb down and act black?
Do you have to see your own women as filthy, vile, and venal little creatures, in order to stand their degradation,
Have women not always played a crucial role in society, as homemaker, nurturer and mother, this is their pedestal, they are the heart of the home, the man the head.
Feminism is the poisonous ideology of gender equality that allows women to be as promiscuous as men. Feminism is just marxism in drag. Why not return to traditional values, Conservatism, God, Family, Marriage are the natural enemies of Atheism, Feminism, Free love and the Matriarchy.
Final thoughts
So you agree that female chastity is ideal, but then dismiss it as unimportant, I don’t think a muslim male would agree, they will fight and die for the chastity of their women, that’s how important it is, but then islam is the most manly religion.
Then you don’t come up with any solutions, heck it’s almost like you don’t really want to solve the problem of feminism, would a true alpha admit defeat and enjoy the decline, or sit back and wait for women to sort the problem, because we all know how good women are at problem solving lol
So are gamers really alpha or just pretenders?
Let all those who decide to make Veritas their goddess, take heed: she is a demanding goddess. For every truth she gives you, she demands a sacrifice of a self-delusion ripped from you without mercy. Not a single false idol of narrative and falsehood shall remain. How many have approached her altar and quailed when they realized what her price was? How many left her cult and gave themselves to Bacchus and Cupid to blot out the truths she thrust into their minds as Apollo did to Cassandra?
@benny
Bear with us. We have just diagnosed the problem. Its a necessary step to fixing it.
Likewise the thing with white knighting is. Often it is to defend women who are not virtuous and subsidizing their poor behavior. And also helping Evil women achieve their Misandric goals. So yes White knighting is a problem. Defending ladies are not the problem defending and helping bitches is.
The Western male hasn’t got the luxury of time, it may already be too late, but wouldn’t an alpha go down fighting, women whine, men don’t waste their time, they find solutions, and implement them, men are problem solvers, but these men claim they don’t know the answers, even though they are staring them in the face, the cynic in me says they just really don’t want to lose the cheap slut sex they’ve been bribed with, especially when cheap slut sex is all they’ve really got left, but when you’ve lost everything of worth, you’ve really got nothing left to lose.
Any man that expends large amounts of effort to convince women to sleep with him is a pussy beggar. Game is only useful in certain quantities of application, and when it becomes an all encompassing aspect of one’s life, it then conflates with the charge of pussy begging. That isn’t feminist boilerplate at all.
I would completely disagree that neoreactionaries are white knights, most of them however wish to reinstate strict sociological penalties to women of poor moral fibre.
Any man who disagrees with this is arguing on their own behalf for their own perceived benefit. The Neoreactionary initiative is not to disregard how awful women are, but to force them to regulate themselves. No man worth anything willingly accepts terrible women, no man worth anything needs to.
Feminism is a sexual trade union that aims to ensure women can behave as awfully as they please and men are expected to accept their behaviors for lack of better options.
I hate to say it, but it seems your sense of aesthetics comport with this.
Neoreactionary policies toward women aim to force unpleasant social consequences for socially destructive behavior, not doing so especially for one’s short term gain is nothing more than enabling of band behavior (aka pussy begging).
Christ, just watched aaron clarey on youtube, and after calling liberal men out as faggots he then goes on to apologise to faggots for using the term, if this is alpha, then we’re all well and truly fucked, good god we don’t want to offend homos do we, those degenerates have an important role in play in the destruction of Western civilisation after all, then he at pains to point out he’s not racist, if this fag represents the manosphere then it needs it’s ass kicking, shame for writing that defeatist whine ‘enjoy the decline’, stop just pretending to be alpha, find your balls, get some masculine pride and man the fuck up.
Aaron Clarey is not Alpha. He’s a whiney little douchebag masquerading as a grown man. He doesn’t represent Game.
I saw that I was being linked to by this article, so I followed the link back here and read it. I just want to make something clear. In the Reader Letter series, I never made any distinction between PUAs and manospherian gamers. I feel I should take the time to point this out, because this isn’t the first time you’ve linked to that piece claiming that I’m making some distinction between “PUA” and “game” and that somehow the Reader Letters series is some vindication of game at the expense of PUAs. All the criticisms of that article apply just as much to manospherian gamers in my book. I chose to take apart the Strauss book The Game because it’s the one book that most people have read and is the most common denominator among people who believe in some form of pickup/game. Nothing in the series is specifically targeted only at people who wear fuzzy hats and nail polish and nothing in the series is there to vindicate the manospherian gamer at the expense of the PUA gamer. Everything in the article is meant to describe all game proponents, whether of the PUA variety or the manospherian variety. All the same criticisms of the piece apply to both.
In fact, I think the manospherian gamer is actually a bigger example of a codependent turned narcissist than the garden variety PUA. The garden variety PUA is obsessed with defining self worth through female acceptance, but at the end of the day his aspirations are just to get laid. The manospherian gamer on the other hand is obsessed with defining self worth through female acceptance, but he has some delusions of grandeur that make him believe that his getting laid will also somehow fix all the ills of Western society and politically remake the world in the process, a belief that is far more narcissistically grandiose than anything the garden variety PUA believes.
Of course, neoreaction is also very narcissistic and filled with delusions of grandeur, even moreso than manosphere gamers, which is why I think both movements butt heads so much. Neoreaction believes are as close to a psychotic break with society as one can get while still remaining functional and able to pass for somewhat rational.
At the end of the day it’s Freud’s “narcissism of small differences” at work behind the conflict between these two groups.
I’m not sure you can take the narcissistic faction of any group and apply its personality to the whole group. Neoreactionaries are being accused of being narcissistic. While I’m sure that there are indeed neoreactionaries who are genuine narcissists in love with the thought of being a lonely and misunderstood ubermensch too brilliant for the peons they encounter in daily life, thinking that you have the answers to life’s problems in the form of a philosophy, secular, political, or religious, is a trait that all humans have had since time immemorial. Humans are a naturally narcissistic species. While some members of the neoreaction may be genuine narcissists, the guys like Davis, Mencious, and Nick Land all strike me as perfectly reasonable guys whose search for answers has brought them outside the realm of popular consensus.
I don’t get the animosity here. I eventually came to the manosphere originally by the way of names that would get your eyes rolling skyward, Ross Jeffries with NLP and David DeAngelo with Double Your Dating. What I got from them was more or less a lot of overlap from sales techniques I got from Ziglar and other luminaries in his field, just applied to dating. The only money I spent on the PUA thing was Neil Strauss’ book. I even read the USENET group but got bored since it was mostly Penthouse Forum style braggadocio field reports and guys saying I’ll be in X city can someone wingman for me. All these guys helped me understand why I was successful when I wasn’t even trying to be, and why I flopped, especially with the Chosen One (the girl every guy has who he almost married, whose memory will niggle him to his death).
My two gripes were 1) poon seemed to be the be-all and end-all of their lives, like booze to an alcoholic or heroin to an addict, instead of part of a balanced, widely varied life, which you pointed out, and 2) all these techniques depended on the concept of plenty vs. scarcity, which I couldn’t see applying in marriage where a man commits (for us Catholics) for life, the ultimate one-itis that makes the whole “dread game” of “next” inoperable. To me, hook ups with a different girl every night was no more than complicating masturbation, adding cost, disease and crazy girl risk to a simple thing.
I somehow discovered Vox, Cappy Cap, and Aurini via some chain o’ links. It was good to see people who had other points in life, a need for a higher purpose to life, and yeah, oh by the way, how do we deal with these alien life forms called women and how to not let them eat us alive like Delilah cutting off Samson’s hair. Like those before, they applied simple B.F. Skinner behavioral stuff and left what made women think a black box. Freud tried to understand women, and failed, and he fathered psychoanalysis. Do this, she does that; say this, she moves to you, say that, she moves away. Half of the stuff is counterintuitive, but not if one finally realizes (it took me forever) that women aren’t men with 5% different body parts, that what makes me tick will not work on her. Heck, what attracts me to a woman repels her from a man if he does it.
What has me here? I’m dying for children like the desert for rainwater. I’ve been MGTOW since before the term, having gotten tired of women’s tomfoolery and not wanting to come home to a harridan every day like my father did, or go to work 3 hours early just to get away from the Mouth. The Catholic mind says don’t go the baby-mama route, it’s a sin; the bio imperative says you don’t breed and pass on your positive traits, you lose, go die, evolutionary dead-end; the control freak says your father stayed there to give you a male lead to lead you to a sane adulthood, so endure the screaming harpie for the kids’ health. But so many around me were put out of their homes, alphas as well as betas or deltas, and they’re weekend dads out of court order, not of choice. I’m sifting through the chaff to try for that “eureka, now I got it” moment before I emulate the NBA Father-hood Plan as a desperate Hail Mary pass.
Why am I writing now? Let the feminists and other outside haters rip on the “manosphere.” Those feminists close ranks and unify to take on the world, other groups likewise, so should we. Mystery’s fur hat is nothing that dandies 200 years ago in knickers and 3 corner hats with snuff boxes didn’t do in their way. Thinking one has a system that can help others isn’t narcissistic; mentoring is as old as manhood. So is sowing one’s oats, then looking for a way to settle without being eaten by the female praying mantis. Mystery married the girl he wanted and now is a father, but he passed through the eyeliner to get there. Don’t kneecap each other over the pissy stuff, try to corral someone privately or in a small circle if you can if you think he went extreme before nuking. I wish you all well. We’re just a bunch of men who want to make a life and try to get women working with us instead of against us, and find what makes women want to be along with the program without hating or hurting them any more than we want bad treatment.
@Sean and @mts1, really thoughtful and articulate comments just above. @mts1, you are screwed by the uncivilized circumstances and your faith. Your faith assumes a patriarchy social environment that does not exist. You will find that special lady only by getting someone very young and still innocent, and that is borderline illegal where 18 is an important legal cutoff of heavy cultural implications. My tentative solution, and I have the same aspirations but am late 40s and running out of time and fucking broke, is the become well off financially and knock up three baby momas that you will live near if they are submissive and obedient. ‘To honor and obey’ is not optional in practice. If she lives with you, you are screwed by DV and divorce rape set up by common law or whatnot. She gets only child support if she does not cooperate and she gets your parenting and ‘husbandry’ if she submits. You get three used women to make up for one nubile virgin, and you save time in making a family. Marriage should be controlled by generic contract law, as should investments (leveraged banking should not exist). Christianity is not fit for dealing with these women as baby momas, because you have he responsibility without the requisite privileges. As far as this rationalist can, I feel your pain. My growth in PUA has hit a plateau, and I can’t get the time of day most days. With these bitches–and they pretty much all are because they can by government and must by nature–you need leverage, to be top 1/2% of men per the female gina tingles. So I am leaning to MGTOW consciously and stop putting in the work since I don’t see improvements at this point per PUA field work. I think women are more narcissistic than ever, and I mean from a year ago. I don’t know if I see it better or if what I am seeing is worsening, but the expectations.
@T, well written and your similar treatment of msphere gamers and PUAs I agree with, and I was pleasantly surprised to read that in your comment. Evolution is about small changes, so what huge differences could their be in a decade? However, @T, I think you are throwing around the charge of narcissism for political advantage at the expense of intellectual honesty. If so, you are in good company to color your arguments to a happy (for you) result. In the end, blacks at large aren’t capable of civilized living without whites to support them against their will per government force. I am against AA, and I sense in your view or feelings the correct victim demographic of your choice is metaphorically lily white. I suspect you fear a backlash against AA beyond that part against feminism. The pounding repetition in your writing caused me to loose interest in your blog after I found some good stuff there. The HBD article on nexxt via VK turned me off completely. I used to be big fans of Bill Cosby and Oprah Winfrey too.
As far as good company goes, I thought this was over the top:
I think that sentiment is blue pill. Lust them and cherish their loyal goodness not a function of their free will but yours. Oh, they don’t have civilized utility like they do free reign if it does not go against the NWO, now do they? And we don’t have our free reign to create the privileged status of ladyship based on the civilized use of what little utility nature gives woman. We should love men all the more to be with them in a progressive, civilized patriarchy. Women? meh They are prize toys of lust, or they are in 99.9% of all cases useless.
The argument was made about that certain men don’t want to give up the cheap slut sex. I don’t believe it is cheap as in easy. The beta punishment is epic on this tax farm. Very few men get it easy, I’d guess 1/2% of men, and they don’t take the cheapest when its free and more than could possibly be serviced. The bitches stay home with their cats and vibrators. There is less sex not more: overpriced and shoddy. Western women are family schlock for tax unit goyim men who would otherwise resist debt slavery and psychological domestication.
Can you please articulate the differences between monarchy and dictatorship in a video? For example, how is a monarch different from a marxist dictator, or more specifically, what would stop a monarch from transfrming his domain from one form of collectivism (monarchy) into another (culturally marxist dictatorship)?
I’m not saying I disagree with your ideas about monarchy, I am just requesting a clarification.
Excellent video “The White Knight”. Really hit home with me.
” PUAs are carrion birds without self-respect, settling for the desperate and the untaken because they don’t stand a chance with quality women.”
There’s no such thing as a “quality woman” you degenerate faggot.
I am appalled at the blue pilledness of some of the people in this part of the internet.
How can somebody believe this retarded myth about how “PUAs” can only get laid with “desperate sluts” (yeah because as a ho in her SMV prime, she has to be desperate /sarcasm). Being a slut is not an indicator of having no standards. And furthermore, many “PUAs” have very high standards when it comes to SMV.
Aaron Clarey is a douche. While he may have a few points here and there, he’s a fraudulent swindler peddling his stupid books. On top of that, he is really annoying with his incessant whining and rehashing the same subject over and over again. People will get sick of him or hopefully he will fade into obscurity. Frank Sinatra and ballroom dancing, what a fag!
@ Benny, Tom Smith and Jay, you should look in the mirror and you’ll the ultimate whiny little loser douches.